Powering Social Enterprise with Profit and Purpose: The Tandem Hybrid - with Jeremy Gudauskas and Scott Boyer - Ep 19

This episode of the Social Enterprise Alliance Podcast aired on Tuesday, April 11th, 2023. This episode can be found on Apple Podcast and Spotify.

0:00:00.0 Scott Boyer: The purpose of the book is to get young entrepreneurs to think about private equity, venture capital funding, because once you take a bite of the apple, I can tell you by the time you take that second bite of the apple, the game changes. And pretty soon, you're working for them. You might have had this dream, and you might have a calling or a cause. And that's one of the things that we'd like to inspire people and, say, if you've got a cause like we had, then maybe you need to think about doing this a different way and not rush to private equity and venture capital, because they're good at basically tying you up with contracts. And every time you take another bite and you get some more funding, it gets really… Usually after the second bite of the apple, you are a minority owner of your own company.


0:01:21.0 Lauren Dekleva: Jeremy Gudauskas is a social impact consultant with over 22 years of experience spanning higher education, business, and nonprofit organizations. He supports large global companies and growing social enterprises, including ROW Global Health, where he serves as a Director of Philanthropy. Prior to consulting, Gudauskas spent 17 years in higher education, advancing the field of social entrepreneurship, both inside and outside the classroom. He launched the Center for Social Impact at North Central College and taught courses in social innovation, design thinking, and impact measurement. He's active in the community, serving as a startup mentor for University of Chicago's Polsky Center for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Chair of the Corporate Social Responsibility Committee for the Naperville Area Chamber of Commerce.

0:02:09.8 David Gaines: Scott Boyer is the founder and president of OWP Pharmaceuticals and the board chair of ROW Global Health, which together form a hybrid social enterprise that is transforming the lives of people with epilepsy and associated psychiatric disorders in over 30 under-resourced countries around the world. Scott spent more than 25 years in Big Pharma, leading sales and marketing efforts for the likes of Abbott and Bristol-Myers Squibb before having the vision for a pharmaceutical social enterprise. In 2014, OWP and ROW were launched to address the global lack of access to life-changing treatment and have already contributed over $21 million for a medication, diagnosis, and training around the world, including grants for over 160,000 prescription months of medication. Together, Scott and Jeremy wrote the book, "Powering Social Enterprise with Profit and Purpose: The Tandem Hybrid". So along with the story of OWP and ROW working together, we brought them on to talk a little bit more about the book. Welcome, Scott and Jeremy. Well, Scott and Jeremy, welcome to the Social Enterprise Alliance podcast.

0:03:21.6 SB: Thank you. Good to be here.

0:03:24.2 Jeremy Gudauskas: Thanks, David. Lauren, thanks for having us on.

0:03:25.9 LD: Yeah, we're so glad to be having a conversation with you all today.

0:03:30.2 DG: Yeah, and especially you guys just released a book, so we really want to dive in and talk about that and how you wrote about social enterprise and kind of your perspectives from this model. So why don't we begin there and just tell us a little bit of that story and what led you to write this book?

0:03:48.0 JG: Cool. I'll mention the book, and then maybe Scott can give some of his backstory, which really led to the book and the model that's featured in the book. But, yeah, the book is called "Powering Social Enterprise with Profit and Purpose: The Tandem Hybrid", and it's published by Routledge in the academic market. And really, it came out of Scott's background in the pharmaceutical industry, which led him to start a social enterprise, what, about seven or eight years ago that he can tell you about. But we're excited to share the model, which is a hybrid model, combining a for-profit and nonprofit organization together for social impact. So, Scott, you want to talk about the background or what led to the book?

0:04:29.4 SB: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I am kind of a traditional Big Pharma guy, kind of born and bred out of, shortly out of college, started with Avid Laboratories and then Bristol-Myers Squibb, combined about 26 years of experience and mainly on the sales side and marketing side. And it kind of, I guess, got to the point… I have two children, and I got to the point where they were both in college or getting out of college, and I was just kind of… I was thinking about, "Is this why I was put on this earth, it's just kind of stay in Big Pharma, kick the can down the road, so to speak, to retirement." And one of the things that, along the way, I learned a lot about the 200 countries in the markets that are focused on by Big Pharma, of which is really just 20 or 25 countries that are more than wealthy countries with healthcare systems, and the rest of the world kind of sits on the sideline. And that is kind of what drove me. I was like, I wonder if we could create some sort of a model that would become profitable, because you do have to make money in order to have social impact, and then provide medication around the world to people that don't have access to it.

0:05:49.6 SB: And so that was the crux of it. I know I looked at companies like Hershey, which has a big foundation, Hormel, Novo Nordisk, also Lundbeck are a couple of pharmaceutical companies based in Europe that have big foundations. But the goal always was to create a profitable, for-profit company, and then have a not-for-profit that's tied, that's funded through the profits. Our goal is to get approximately 50% of our profits into ROW so they can do their work around the world. And we've done a lot of good things as a small company. We've got a couple of drugs to the FDA right now, and those hit kind of at the end of 2024, beginning of 2025, things are going to change quite quickly then. But it's been a long haul. I will say it's been a long haul to get to this point. But we've got… Jeremy can tell you more about the projects we have all going on around the world. But we do have an IP holding company that's set up, and so royalties are paid to ROW to do their good work.

0:06:55.2 SB: And as we have more sales and become more profitable, they will become much bigger over time. They do a lot of work already, primarily focused in neuroscience with epilepsy and our future drugs, also schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, anxiety, etcetera. But our primary focus right now is in epilepsy. And we sell medications in neuroscience in the United States, and we donate medications in neuroscience around the world. So that gives you a little background. But it was, I guess, the compelling thing was that we had a successful career, and it was like I think one of the key questions I always ask people that come here, and we've got 18 employees right now, is that "How much is enough?" And for people who've been successful is that, I think you need to ask you that question to yourself. And when you reach that number, our focus is really on how to give back to people in low and middle-income countries around the world. And with that, maybe, Jeremy, you can tell a little bit about the work that's going on with ROW.

0:08:08.8 JG: Sure. Yeah, Scott was alluding to when he was in pharma, he'd look at those sales charts in the couple hundred countries on the far right side with the smallest piece of the pie were labeled "ROW". And that's why Scott chose to name the foundation and the not-for-profit, ROW, which stands for Rest of World. So that's the goal. And the epilepsy focus, I think, as a first goal is because of the huge treatment gap. I think there are 65 million people in the world with epilepsy, 52 million of those are in low and middle-income countries, and about 80% of those don't get treated. So there's 39 million people that suffer from a very treatable condition, 70% of folks who get medication have their lives completely turned around for the good. They can get a job, they can work, or they can get an education, they can get married, they can have kids, all the things that they can't do, because of the stigma and discrimination that happens in some of these countries, because it's really misunderstood.

0:09:13.8 JG: They think it's contagious or even worse, demon possession. And so a lot of the work that ROW does is around education, diagnosis, and treatment in all of these countries that we're working in. So right now, I think Scott alluded to, we've got projects in about 75 or more projects in 35 countries around the world and have already granted over $20 million in medication and about what we consider about 170,000 prescription months of medication. So, and really, we're just getting started. So it's exciting to see what this model is already doing. And to Scott's point, the scale that will happen, when even more funding comes, through the success of the business is really, really incredible.

0:10:02.1 DG: Yeah. Well, and to me, I think a little bit shocking. Honestly, when you hear Big Pharma, the first images and thoughts that come to my mind are companies that are maybe somehow taking advantage of people. And I have really wrestled with this paradox because on one hand, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of bad stories, where maybe that is true, but there's also the reality that medicines are being made to help people's lives. So it's almost like the conversation is at a deeper level is this tension between what is profitable, what is okay to be profitable, where do the profits go after that. And it sounds like within this paradox, you guys are trying to fundamentally think through different perspectives as well. And yet, all with that to say, at the core of what Big Pharma companies do is ultimately impact people's lives through medicine and research.

0:11:01.7 SB: Yeah. And I've been in Big Pharma my whole life. And now I'm in small pharma. But basically, you set up patents and exclusivity, and you use that in 20 to 25 countries to maximize those products. But the other 175 countries, like Jeremy mentioned the ROW, that's usually like one or 2% of the sales of those products. And that's the majority of the countries. And that's when you look at that and you go, "Wow, how is this even possible?" There are more people in that little 2% than there is in everything else added together, kind of multiplied by a number. So, the system is set up to provide exclusivity, to maximize profits and unfortunately, it keeps all these people on the sidelines. And the drugs we are giving away are mainly generic tablets, we can make them relatively inexpensively.

0:11:52.0 SB: But even those when they go generic, and they are inexpensive, and you think, "Oh, here you are in the United States. You go to Walgreens or CVS or independent pharmacy, and it's 20 bucks a month or something like that." And you think, "Okay, they're probably affordable everywhere in the world." Not the case. You know, not the case. So, us providing medications, and we're not selling these drugs and these medications. We're gifting them through the not-for-profit to another not-for-profit, either clinic or hospital, to help people with epilepsy. And like Jeremy said, it is life-changing. I mean, we're talking in a couple weeks, you don't have seizures, or you have so few seizures, you can go and live a normal life. And here in America, you guys understand that epilepsy is kind of misfiring in the brain. That's not the case in countries in Africa and Latin America.

0:12:44.1 DG: Well, and that's where even before talking about the book, you have me very intrigued about the idea that a pharmaceutical company is a social enterprise. Well, tell me more about that. So, we've unpacked that story. So, specifically, does the story of OWP then begin with this social enterprise kind of foundation?

0:13:05.4 SB: It does. I mean, without ROW, there would be no OWP, because they both start at the same time. And I was working at Bristol and had a good career, I left Big Pharma, which is pretty unusual at that stage. And basically, it was built with this philanthropy in mind. And, David, you mentioned this social enterprise. Our tagline for OWP is the "Pharmaceutical Social Enterprise," because when we talk to physicians, they see the "Pharmaceutical Social Enterprise", they go, "Whoa, I don't really associate pharma with social enterprise, so explain more." So, that's our tagline to basically make people kind of go, "Oh, I don't think I've ever thought that or heard that," then it leads into a discussion about what we're trying to accomplish around the world through ROW.

0:14:01.3 LD: Yeah, that's awesome. It really is amazing to hear about just the revolutionary aspect of this work, that this is just kind of an industry that hasn't been touched much by the concept of social enterprise. So, to see the work that you all are doing within that industry, it's really inspiring. I'm curious to also hear more about the structure of the foundation and OWP, how those two work together. And, what does a hybrid social enterprise look like? How is it different than typical social enterprises? And how did you all decide that it was the right structure for what you wanted to do?

0:14:42.3 SB: Yeah. And, Lauren, that's a great question. And I know you were a social entrepreneurship major, I believe…

0:14:50.1 LD: That's right. Yeah.

0:14:51.4 SB: When you were in the college. And so, the book is supposed to be a book for professors at colleges, and Routledge is a book publisher that's focused on colleges and universities, to try to get this concept out there about social capitalism. So, we have an IP holding company that we put all of our intellectual property in, and it is jointly owned by ROW and OWP. And that allows for royalties to flow through, OWP sells product, and a percentage of it goes into this IP hold company and then royalties flow through to ROW. And the reason why I think it's important to get this book out there to young entrepreneurs is that we were bootstrapping a lot here and we were at a position in our life where we could do this. It's a lot more difficult if you're 24 years old and just out of college and you're trying to pay bills and all those certain things that come with life. But we had no private equity and no venture capital. And that is a big deal, because once you go down that path of private equity and venture capital, the company usually doesn't become your own.

0:16:05.9 SB: We had numerous discussions with VCs that told us, "Hey, we would write you a big check, but you need to set ROW aside and you can do this later. Do what most normal people do and go make a bucket full of money and then start a private foundation and then go do your ROW work. But this royalty is going to gum things up. As far as selling the company, everybody's going to go, "What's ROW?" And so we said, "Well, you've got to keep in mind the purpose of these two organizations was to get ROW funded. So if you're telling me we can't do it, you can't give us any funding unless we eliminate ROW." We're like, "Well, that's the reason we did this." And so the answer was no. So we were funded mainly by individual investors, some family offices and smaller investors. And we do have products that we're now selling. And that's the way we've been able to get so far. We've had a couple of delays in new products. Otherwise, honestly, we're a couple of years behind where I thought we would be at this time. But things are lining up really well for future launches, which will change the dynamics to the company.

0:17:23.5 SB: But the purpose of the book is to get young entrepreneurs to think about private equity, venture capital funding, because once you take the bite of the apple, I can tell you by the time you take that second bite of the apple, the game changes and pretty soon, you're working for them. You're not working… You might have had this dream and you might have a calling or a cause. And that's one of the things that we'd like to inspire people and, say, if you've got a cause like we had, then maybe you need to think about doing this a different way and not rush to private equity and venture capital, because they're good at basically tying you up with contracts. And every time you take another bite and you get some more funding, it gets really… Usually after the second bite of the apple, you are a minority owner of your own company. There's lots and lots of articles out there about founders ending up with three, four, five percent of the company by the time everything's said and done. And we didn't want that to happen.

0:18:33.3 SB: And some of the companies, that I mentioned, Lundbeck, Novo Nordisk, Hershey, those are companies that started foundations honestly, 70, 80, 90, 100 years ago. And that's the sort of longevity we'd like. We want this to go forward in perpetuity, and that means you have to run a successful for-profit company and be innovative, come out with new ideas. It does mean you have to do that, but Hershey's been able to do that. Lundbeck's been able to do that. Novo Nordisk has been able to do that. So there are ways to get it done, but this is definitely a small percentage of the business structures that you're gonna see out there. It's a small, small number.

0:19:18.5 JG: I'll add to that just 'cause Scott mentioned higher education and the academic market. I spent 17 years in higher education and 10 years, the last 10, among other things, teaching social entrepreneurship and one of the gaps I noticed in books, in textbooks and literature was really in-depth analysis of these hybrid social enterprises. We talk about for-profit models and non-profit models and then there'd be usually a paragraph or a page or a small section about hybrid models. So it was really interesting to me to use the OWP and ROW model as an example and really a blueprint for a model that other people could try to replicate. As you both know, there's all shapes and sizes and forms for social enterprises. And so we go through those in the book, we talk about the benefits of for-profit models, the benefits of non-profit models but also each of their limitations. Even the ones that are designed now to protect social impact in a for-profit company like a benefit corporation, which is great, or a L3C or the new benefit LLCs.

0:20:28.2 JG: But we also go more in-depth on what are those combination structures look like in hybrid models, where you've got either a non-profit with a for-profit subsidiary or a for-profit with a non-profit partner, which is kind of a version of what we're doing. But then we just kind of explode it and go in-depth on the model that OWP and ROW are finding really successful. So I think that's one of the things that this book offers is kind of a more in-depth look at organizations that want to maximize their social impact through a profit engine and how to really utilize non-profits and for-profits in the ways that they were created, instead of trying to kind of force-fit something that doesn't really always lend itself to success. There's a lot of great examples of organizations doing that but we said, "Why not take each entity as it was designed, link them together," much in the same way that Patagonia has done. If you saw the announcement that came out recently, they're doing it a little bit of a different way but same idea, is to keep the mission locked in for perpetuity, like Scott said, and have the funding fuel the mission for the long-term.

0:21:39.1 LD: Yeah, that's so awesome. I mean, the mission lock, that is actually one of the key components of being a social enterprise in our view in when you talk to companies that do certification or procurement. That mission-lock piece is a really important part of defining what makes a social enterprise. And that's kind of what I was curious about, too, you hear about mission drift and entrepreneurship courses and all of that and it's obvious that you all have been very focused from the beginning, when it comes to your funding. There was never any ambiguity of what your mission was. It was always the rest of the world and reaching them with these medications. So my question is, when you have kind of these two halves that make the social enterprise run and make it successful, how do you kind of balance the responsibilities of it? How do you balance the work that it takes to run a successful for-profit organization with the core mission of the social enterprise?

0:22:41.6 SB: I'll take the for-profit first and then Jeremy can talk about the not-for-profit. But there is no ambiguity for myself. I am a commercial pharma guy. That is who I am, that was my DNA. I basically took my vocation for 26 years that made it kind of my mission. So my focus is OWP, 90% of the time. I am on the board of ROW Global Health. There's actually a private foundation and a public charity, because ROW does get donations from people that have a heart for epilepsy, and we have both the private and the public, because some people can only donate through DAP to a public corporation or public charity. But my focus is on OWP and getting this pipeline built out, which is really to a large degree what I did when I was in the pharmaceutical industry. So I'm still kind of doing what I did before. Obviously, it was built to fund ROW, and it's got some crazy successful programs going on around the world, and we get letters, videos, all sorts of things all the time from people that thank us for what we're doing.

0:24:00.2 SB: The one thing that definitely from a heartstrings perspective when we started this was that, if we were in Africa or Latin America right now, the number one drug for epilepsy… Really number one and number two drug for epilepsy in the United States are both generic and they have tablets and they're inexpensive, let's say $0.20 a day to manufacture and we're giving those away. But to be in those countries right now and have a child that has epilepsy and knowing and they may or may not know but that there's a drug that could basically make their life normal, 70% of the time. And them not get that drug, I mean, that's just pharmaceutical medical injustice. So that's what our goal is, to basically get these medications through our not-for-profit to a not-for-profit that's local, so you can unleash the human potential of these… Sometimes they're adults, they've only had seizures for 10 years. And we show up, and two weeks later, they're like, "I have no more seizures." And people are just like, "Whoa, now I can go get a job. I don't have to have a caregiver like my mother who's watching out for me all the time."

0:25:17.3 SB: Because if you have a seizure, unfortunately, in the wrong place in a wrong time, in a low-income country, probably the best thing that's gonna happen is you just get robbed. There are a lot of other bad things can happen when you're having seizures including people are killed, because people think that they're possessed. So my focus is OWP to make sure we get the medications and get this pipeline of products to pay for the medications to ROW. And, Jeremy, you can talk more about the work that ROW is doing around the world.

0:25:53.1 JG: Yeah, I think there's benefits and challenges of the structure, but I think the benefits are you can have people with expertise and skills and background in education in either a for-profit world or a non-profit world, who can find their niche in this mission. So on the non-profit side for ROW Global Health and ROW Foundation, we've got a team of great experts who have years of experience in non-profit world. So they can take what OWP is providing in support and really maximize the use in terms of where the money goes and how it's used, and the impact that's had. So you mentioned mission drift, I think that is a lot of times the challenge of a single entity that is either too focused on the profit and then they can't fulfill their mission, or they're too focused on the mission and then they forget about the profit generation that's needed to happen. We use that as an analogy in the book. We talk about this tandem hybrid model, you think about a tandem bike and how they're connected, structurally connected.

0:26:56.5 JG: We talk about mission draft instead of mission drift, which is really because they're connected. You think in a bike race, when they're two separate bikes, you draft off the one in front of you and you benefit from them taking the lead and kind of cutting through the difficulty. When you're linked and you're moving together that's even better, and so we talk about the benefit of being linked as a non-profit and for-profit. It's just you drive together and you can go that much farther and that much faster in terms of this model. Again, not to say there's anything wrong with all the other models, we talk about their benefits as well in the book but this one in terms of scale and what it can do is pretty powerful.

0:27:39.5 LD: It definitely seems like there are a lot of roadblocks in some of these more traditional non-hybrid models of doing business, that the hybrid seems to really be able to address creatively, which is really, really cool.

0:27:55.0 DG: Yeah. So with that, I think the question now I have is what questions should people be asking? So if I'm starting a brand new social enterprise, and I'm thinking about the different structures, for-profit, non-profit, or this new hybrid model. Is there like a series of key questions that I should be thinking through that would help me kind of identify which path is best?

0:28:19.9 JG: Yeah, we do address that throughout the book. And I think there's certain questions that any entrepreneur is going to be asking when they think about structuring. So how are you going to attract funding? What are tax implications that you do or do not want to have? What transparency is going to be required for you and the organization? What governance model is important for you? So I think all of those questions and really how… But the ultimate one, I think, Scott, you'd say like, "How do I maximize the mission and the impact that I want to have? What structure is going to help me achieve the mission at scale to help the most people possible?" And that's the structure that you want to go with. In some models, I think the traditional structures can get you there, but sometimes they can't, and I think that's why we want this one to be kind of on the table as people think about them.

0:29:13.0 SB: Yeah, and this kind of using capitalism as a social engine, we want people to think about this when they're starting their company, starting their enterprise, because if they don't, the world will remove you in the other direction. And let's face it, we're not talking about… Still 99% of the business out there are going to be structured kind of normal. These were very, very unusual in the way we structure this business. But if you've got a cause and you've got a calling, and you want to make a long-term impact, then you're going to have to think at the beginning on who you're taking money from. Because if you don't think about that then those decisions will be made for you eventually. So it's important for you to really map out what you're trying to accomplish. One thing I've talked to some people that are like serial entrepreneurs and for those I'm like, "Okay, you've already done this once or twice and it's worked out really well. Okay, you probably have a fair amount of money in the bank.

0:30:21.0 SB: So why not consider this where your end goal is not just to make a bigger pot of gold?" And that's why I always ask people I say, "Hey, what's your number?" When you get to a certain amount, why not think about social impact or social good? Because just making more money, isn't going to make you… Generally, it doesn't make you happier the more you have. So I'm telling you right now, I wouldn't change the last five years, five, six years with OWP and the impact we're having around the world. The thousands of patients, what I hope to be someday millions of patients, for my first 26 years. The first 26 years, it's business, it's a grind. It was good for myself, my family but it doesn't compare to the impact that we're having right now. And we have updates from OWP and ROW every other month. And we'd get people on Zoom coming to ROW meetings from all over the world, talking about what we're doing and the impact we're having. It just brings you so much joy.

0:31:29.7 LD: Wow, that is truly incredible. That is so, so awesome. I'm just curious if this is something that you all can say. So obviously you've been addressing epilepsy. Do you know what's next on your kind of list to provide treatments for?

0:31:46.2 SB: Yeah, and our niche in the US market for sales is neuroscience, so it's psychiatry and neurology. So it would be, right now, our main drugs are in epilepsy, but we will have schizophrenia, bipolar depression, anxiety, drugs in that vein. We've done a couple projects on education for mental health disorders. And I would say that's the area that we'll probably grow into in addition to kind of being a stalwart for epilepsy around the world.

0:32:19.6 LD: Awesome.

0:32:19.7 DG: Cool, and for ROW, does it's kind of similar? Like you said, it's kind of a draft, right? So as that segment begins to grow, does ROW still have similar kind of growth mission, impact mission around those drugs?

0:32:34.6 JG: Yeah, and I think that's the really compelling thing about this model is that as OWP grows, ROW grows also. And I think we also see it as a pipeline for not just the medications and the funding that OWP can provide, but what else could we do if we were to maximize that network and the model and the system that we've created to already reach over 35 countries, partnering with other organizations that could provide similar support and see ROW as the conduit for them doing good. I think then you look at scale to the levels that we hadn't probably even thought about previously. So yeah, it's exciting to see and to think about what could be possible in the future.

0:33:20.7 SB: Yeah, and our hope is that obviously all the expenses for the employees associated with ROW is covered by OWP. So when you look at our 990 report for the not-for-profit, honestly, if people donated… And we know that the primary engine for ROW will always be OWP. But there are people that donate, and there's gonna be more and more people that donate small amounts and some large amounts, because they're like, "Oh, and wow, these guys are really getting things done in epilepsy around the world." And when they make a donation, there's no admin fee for the infrastructure. And most times you make a donation, there is, because you have to pay people salaries and so forth. So that's one thing nice about this is that OWP covers that. So when people donate, literally they can donate the amount for a project and the project will get done. And then I could have to upcharge it for administration, which is normal and customary with not-for-profits, because people need to get paid. But that's one of the positives about the OWP/ROW model is that that is covered through OWP.

0:34:35.2 DG: Yeah, that's fantastic. And that definitely is one of the struggles, I think, as nonprofits especially start to scale up is not 100% of the donated revenue can go to the cause that you're hoping to donate to. So that's really great that you've addressed it that way.

0:34:51.0 LD: Yeah, so awesome. Well, Scott, Jeremy, this has been such an enlightening and fascinating conversation and also inspiring. It's just really, really great to hear about the fantastic work that you all are doing. So in closing, tell us where our audience can purchase this book and how they can support the work that you're doing.

0:35:12.8 JG: Yeah, well, we have a website up, tandemhybrid.co. So it's tandemhybrid.co. You can go there and then you can find out multiple places that you can purchase the book. And, yeah, we'd love to hear from folks who do read it or have questions about it. Scott and I are willing to jump on a Zoom call to a class or speak at events, things like that. But we really hope that it's useful for not just for students in the education market but for practitioners and folks, who are in the Social Enterprise Alliance Network who have maybe started their social enterprise or are thinking about structure or may wanna restructure in the future. We'd be happy to be a resource.

0:35:51.3 LD: That's so awesome. And for any SCA members also Jeremy and Scott both spoke at our summit in 2022. And so if you go to your member dashboard and check out the summit videos tab, you'll see a really awesome session that they did with Melissa Seavey. So that's another resource available to SCA members.

0:36:10.1 JG: Yeah, that was a fun session. Melissa's great, too, yeah.

0:36:12.4 LD: Yeah, so awesome.

0:36:15.5 DG: Well, guys, thanks again for your work. And, yeah, we look forward to checking back in in a year or two and seeing where you guys are having an impact next.

0:36:26.2 LD: Yeah.

0:36:26.7 JG: Fantastic. Thanks for all the work you both do with Social Enterprise Alliance. It impacts a lot of people who are trying to do this work. So we're just glad to be part of the network and appreciate all that you're doing.

0:36:35.9 LD: Thanks, Jeremy.

0:36:39.4 SB: Thank you so much.

0:36:39.5 LD: Thank you both. Have a great day.